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Endgame Spoilers

Okay, so I have a couple things I want to say about the movie, but I don’t wan to spoil it for anybody. This isn’t a full review or anything, just a couple of quick thoughts.

And now a few more words to make sure nobody sees anything they don’t want to…

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Okay. A couple of thoughts.

  1. Coulsen should have been included in the family pictures at the end of the movie. As he said, they needed somebody to avenge. He’s alive; Joss Whedon can go jump for all I care. Coulsen should have been standing next to Fury.
  2. There should have been a picture or something of Nat along with Tony’s wreath. They both died stopping Thanos; why wouldn’t the Avengers be mourning her as well as Tony? Unless…
  3. Black Widow is coming back. Red Skull said the exchange for the Soul Stone was irrevocable. But Steve took the Soul Stone back. A soul for the soulstone is the price and it could work both ways. Black Widow will return.
  4. Loki is back and has the tesseract. He ducked out with an instance of the Tesseract and the one Cap returns is the instance from 1970.
  5. Gamora is back as the time shifted instance of herself. Was she dusted by Iron Man as one of Thanos’s minions? We don’t know, but Quill will certainly be looking for her.
  6. Where did Cap’s new shield come from? Is it an instance of the original, or did he take a trip to Wakanda?

Some of the questions above come straight from the use of time travel as a plot device, which, by the way, I hate with a passion. Too many writers use it as a get out of jail free card, an excuse for lazy writing. (Yes, I’m talking about the WB Flash.) Loki stole the Space Stone and disappeared with it, meaning the events of the first Avengers movie could not happen. Will the writers resolve this paradox? Probably not.

I’ve got more as I digest the movie, and I will post a full review soon. These are just a few things that have been tripping through my brain since I watched it.

4 Responses to “Endgame Spoilers”

  1. Barry Wallace says:

    The only way time travel works for this movie is if in every instance that a change happens in the past, a new off-shoot universe if created – but the current time Avengers are tied to their own universe and keep returning to it. So nothing changes in the past for them. Loki is still dead at Thanos’ hands. So there’s a universe where the tesseract has disappeared from SHIELD in 1970, a separate one where Loki escaped from NYC, a separate one where Gamora didn’t die but Black Widow did, a separate one where Peter didn’t get the orb, etc. etc. And the “main” timeline never changed because you can’t change your own past.

    The only hitch in this is apparently when Thanos, Gamora, Old Nebula and New Nebula jump to the future – their future – they stay in the same timeline. But what happened to the past when Thanos wasn’t there to affect things from then till now? Sure, they did say you can change your own future but your present is the Avenger’s past – which supposedly can’t be changed. But he must have, because he wasn’t there to affect his present – he was in the future. The end makes no sense if you try to stay in the same laws as were laid out (which is funny because all the fictional time travel stories they threw out – Star Trek, Back to the Future, Bill & Ted, etc – rely heavily on being able to change your own past.). And finally, if Steve Rogers went back mucking around in the past to return the 6 stones, how could he “change the past” by growing old and completely altering everyone’s history since the 1940’s without skewing into another timeline? How did he grow old in the “Prime” timeline? They kept breaking their own rules just to serve the story and the drama.

    But I have another issue, which I’ll put in another comment – apologies for hijacking your post, but I’d like to hear your thoughts.

    • Rich Hailey says:

      This is why I am firmly opposed to time travel stories; writers use it as an escape hatch. They bend/break/mangle the rules they set up in order to get the outcome they want.

      Starting with the core of the movie, the stones. The Avengers split into three teams in two different eras to collect the six stones; New York 2012, and Morag/Vormir 2014. They acquire 5 of the stones successfully, and Bruce is told that the stones must be returned or else there will be new timelines created. This directly contradicts what Tony and Strange said before the journey when Rhodey wanted to revise the whole thing away. Loki ducks out with the tesseract never to be seen again in the movie. Next, Tony and Cap go back to 1970 to get another crack at the tesseract. This time they are successful and everybody, minus Nat, returns to 2024.

      Loki is alive and has the tesseract in 2012. That means it never made it to Asgard and neither did Loki. The writers broke their own rules.

      And as you pointed out, they changed Peggy Carter’s timeline as she got to marry Steve after all. I like that ending (and saw it coming when Sharon Carter wasn’t part of the cast for Endgame) but it is incompatible with the rules they established.

      Unless…

      What if Stark was lying about there being no way to change the past? His bargain with Cap that no changes would be made to the timeline wouldn’t be necessary if changes were impossible. His insistence could be seen as an indicator that the past could be changed, and as we saw in the movie, it was. This is backed up by the fact that Thanos believed he needed to destroy the stones in order to prevent his work from being undone. He became ‘inevitable’ when the stones were taken off the table. Further corroboration comes from the Dr. Strange movie, where Wong and Mordo caution him against changing the past, not because it is impossible (he saved the Hong Kong sanctuary by reversing time) but because it is dangerous.

      This either makes Tony even more of an ass, or, on the more charitable side, he recognizes the dangers in large scale changes to the past, “destroying the fabric of time” is how Wong put it, and acts to keep the team from trying.

      Even at that, Hulk tries to bring Nat back and fails, but that could be because the Soulstone, having accepted the exchange, refuses to undo that exchange and limits Hulk’s access.

  2. Barry says:

    Right before Hulk dons the Gauntley and makes his snap, Tony Stark gives him a final, quick instruction – make sure everyone comes back but the past five years happened just as they already did for everyone. This was a very, very selfish request on Tony’s part – for the most part after the snap his life continued very well. Pepper survived, their baby survived and was born and became an incredibly precocious 5-yr-old. He retired from the suit and was very content to live the life he was living, rest of the world be damned. But trillions of people around the universe have spent the last five years grieving the loss of their loved ones – the vast majority with no idea what happened. How many civilizations crumbled in the interim? Earth seems to have survived but has a huge case of the existential blues. But they adapted. All the worlds either adapted or ceased to exist (which was Thanos’ plan). But to request the five year gap never happened, that everyone who left should return but at the present day and time, just so he didn’t lose the time with his precious little family (which would have happened again in the normal course of events regardless) was incredibly self-serving. Clint still spent 5 years of his life without his wife and kids. Rocket lost his best friend, Groot. How many worlds imploded from holy war because they thought it was some kind of rapture or sign from God? But no, keep your family intact, Tony, because at your (mechanical) heart, you’re still just a selfish man.

    • Rich Hailey says:

      I responded above as it was part of the same discussion.

      Of course, if you want to throw a little realism, an instantaneous 50% reduction in global population is an extinction level event. Five years later, we’d be lucky if 10% of the initial survivors were still around. Now throw in the instant return of everybody who was dusted, a 5 fold jump in population overnight, and the result would be catastrophic famine.

      If by some miracle we survived the snap, the recovery would wipe the planet out.

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